Season 4, Episode 2: Brian Smoliak: Adapting Agriculture for a Drier Future
Brian Smoliak
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In this episode of Audacious Water, host John Sabo continues the conversation on the first transformation —the deserts of the west moving eastward—with Brian Smoliak, an entrepreneur and climate scientist at Two Degrees Adapt. Brian shares insights on how climate change is affecting agriculture, and discusses innovative solutions helping farmers adapt. From cutting-edge technologies to evolving farming practices, Brian explains the vital role entrepreneurship and innovation play in addressing the challenges posed by climate change.
“There was this thought that if we invest in climate adaptation, that’s money that’s not going to go towards mitigation, go towards reducing emissions ... I think we can walk and chew gum at the same time.”
Key Topics
Climate Adaptation in Agriculture: Brian and John discuss how rising temperatures, water variability, and extreme weather events are affecting crops like corn, soybeans, and wheat, and how farmers are adapting.
Environmental Defense Fund Report: Brian highlights findings from a report he co-authored with the Environmental Defense Fund, modeling climate change’s impact on agricultural yields in the Midwest.
Water’s Role in Climate Adaptation: Brian and John explore how 75% of natural disasters are water-related, and how investments in flood resilience and water management are crucial for climate adaptation.
Innovations in Crop Genetics and Precision Agriculture: Brian explains how technologies like CRISPR and precision agriculture are helping farmers cope with climate variability,.
Flash Droughts and Water Management: Brian and John discuss strategies such as controlled drainage systems and preparation for “flash droughts,” as well as the broader impact on agriculture.
Scaling Solutions for Climate Adaptation: Brian and John emphasize the need for public and private sector investment to scale climate adaptation efforts. They also share advice for young scientists interested in entrepreneurship.
Links to Relevant Studies and Resources:
Brian Smoliak’s climate adaptation consulting firm, Two Degrees Adapt.
Learn more about Brian’s company, Weathervane, which helps individuals make climate-smart decisions in their daily lives.
The Environmental Defense Fund report with Two Degrees Adapt: Read the report and the press release.
Brian and John discuss the rising temperatures and increased water variability affecting key crops. Read the National Climate Assessment on Agriculture, Food Systems, and Rural Communities.
Brian mentioned Richard Seeger’s episode on evapotransportation. Listen to it here.
Brian mentioned the bonus episode last season detailing John’s road trip up the Mississippi. Listen to A Road Trip to the Mississippi Headwaters.
“Farmers have been adapting to the climate for as long as we’ve been doing agriculture, and that’s going to continue”
Transcript
START (AUDACIOUS WATER EPISODE 2, SEASON 4)
[MUSIC]
John: Welcome to Audacious Water, a podcast about how to create a world of water abundance for everyone. I'm John Sabo, director of the ByWater Institute at Tulane University. On today's show we continue exploring the first transformation: the deserts of the west are moving eastward. In the last episode you heard from climate scientist Jonathan Overpeck, about how climate change is driving aridification, and strategies for adaptation. Today my guest is Brian Smoliak, an entrepreneur and climate scientist at Two Degrees Adapt, a climate-adaptation research and consulting firm based in Minneapolis, Minnesota. We'll dive deeper into the discussion on adaptation with a focus on agriculture, and explore how innovation and entrepreneurship can help address the challenges climate change is already bringing.
John: Welcome to the show, Brian.
Brian: Thanks so much. It's an honor to be here.
John: Yeah, this is going to be fun. So I always start podcasts with what I call a "softball pitch," and it's just when you were a kid did you imagine something like climate change, and did you imagine doing the job that you do in the realm of climate change? Talk to me about that.
Brian: Yeah, I mean, certainly not specifically imagining this, but I do remember as a kid being outdoors. My interests were really always bringing me outdoors. I was very interested in Earth science from a really young age. You know, weather merit badge was my first Boy Scout merit badge. I remember checking out in first grade a book from the local library about climate change, and this was in the early '90s when the IPCC was first sort of revving up. And I had a lot of interest, so I don't think that, you know, stuck really early, but this idea of just being outside, being up close and personal with the Earth like that, I think set me on a path towards this type of career. And then, you know, as most people do, kind of follow their interests. And when I got to college atmospheric science really just grabbed me, and I've been on for the ride ever since.
John: That's great. Yeah, I mean, I have similar motivations, right? Like, I grew up fishing with my dad in Colorado, and that kind of got me into rivers, and it just never stopped. Just kept following that interest, like you said. Well, cool. Well, let's dive in. Talk to me about what the scope of your work is today sort of broadly. What do you do for a living?
Brian: Yeah, so as an entrepreneur and a climate scientist I'm working kind of in two ways. I'm starting businesses, and those businesses are really focused on helping people adapt to climate change. You know, I'm working on a couple different projects, you know, Two Degrees Adapt is a climate adaptation research and consulting firm based in Minneapolis here.
[0:03:00]
Brian: And we're working to help organizations really move the needle and really start to implement climate-adaptation solutions in their own operations. And then to also create thought leadership, we're working with non-profits, we're working with governments to really start to, like I said, move the needle on climate adaptation. And then I'm also working on a weather company called "Weathervane," and where we're helping more at the individual level to help people adapt their own individual lives and their daily routines to make decisions so they can keep doing the things they love comfortably and confidently in spite of climate change.
John: Wow, that's so interesting to have two efforts, one focused kind of on organizations, and the other on individuals. Sounds like you're busy. Do you sleep at night?
Brian: [LAUGHTER] I do sleep. I prioritize that. But yeah, there's a lot of work. And I think that I'm so passionate about it and persistent that it really keeps me going. But yeah, I still spend a lot of time outside to keep filling the tank and keep restoring my ability to keep going.
John: Great. Let's dig into climate adaptation and moving the needle. Tell me how you do that. Give me an example of a situation where we haven't been moving the needle but where you think you can have impact like that.
Brian: Yeah. Well, there are a couple of areas. I think one is just making the public and decisionmakers, you know, organizations more aware of climate adaptation, and getting them to really think about what the opportunities are to generate that interest. Because, you know, at present there are, you know, some gaps in terms of movement on climate adaptation, actually implementing solutions, technologies. There's a gap in terms of finance. Climate adaptation is largely funded by the public sector today, and we in the future need that to be shared by both the private sector and the public sector. But backing up even further, with climate change there's also been a focus on reducing greenhouse case emissions and what we would call "mitigation." And that's very important. That's the hardest thing to do. It should be our top priority. However, sometimes I think there can be a little overemphasis on that, and, you know, to not find this low-hanging fruit, these opportunities to adapt ourselves. "Climate adaptation" for a long time was sort of a bad word. It was sort of a third rail not to be touched. There was this thought that, you know, if we invest in climate adaptation that's, you know, money that's not going to go towards mitigation, go towards reducing emissions. And while that might be true in the largest sense, I think we can walk and chew gum at the same time. It's possible to make these investments in climate adaptation, to do that implementation, and to also reduce greenhouse gas emissions at the same time. You know, I think that, like, today we're about 1.4 degrees Celsius warmer than the pre-industrial average, and we're seeing impacts all around the world already.
John: Yes.
Brian: You know, climate change is here today. We see, you know, flooding going on all over the world right now, especially in Europe. And I think one thing that makes me optimistic is that our current and policies and just trends generally seem to show us starting to bend that emissions curve that will, you know, show us a future that might be 1.8 degrees C, or 2.3 degrees C warmer. But I think what we don't know yet is how much worse is it going to be? You know, where is it going to be worse, and how will we adapt our lives to that warmer world? And that's really the work that we all share, and what I'm trying to be out front inspiring others on - to work on.
John: I like that optimism. I was just at the Aspen Institute last week at a water forum that's hosted by Duke University and the Aspen Institute, and the topic was decarbonization in the water sector. And one of the upshots that we came to was--you know, and I think this is a UN statement, or maybe it's been adapted from an original UN statement--but 75% of natural disasters are water-related, and they're intensifying with climate change. And so the point we landed on was, water is really the place - the focus of climate adaptation in a lot of ways, given that number 75.
Brian: Absolutely.
John: What do you think about that? Yeah, talk to me about that.
Brian: I completely agree that water is one of these early areas where we have seen investment in climate adaptation, where we have seen interest. And I think that that's why some of the early startups that are working on climate adaptation for flood have been receiving investment, both from early investors like angel investors, but also now starting to see some venture capital investment in companies focused on flood. We're also starting to see this with wildfire as well. And I think in the next decade you'll start to see companies really addressing some of these other perils, like heat. And really that's where my interest is and where I want to continue to dedicate time.
John: Super interesting. Let's shift gears, and I want to spend some time talking about a report that Two Degrees Adapt co-authored with the Environmental Defense Fund. So talk to me about that report. What was the purpose of that report?
Brian: Yeah, so the study that we co-authored with the Environmental Defense Fund was working with their climate-smart agriculture team and really trying to answer the question of what might the future of agriculture look like under a climate change, and what might some of the adaptation options be for growers in those areas? We chose to do what we call the "illustrative case studies." So we focused on three different crops: corn in Iowa, soybeans in Minnesota, and wheat in Kansas. And we chose these because those crops are sort of keystone crops in those states, and we also wanted to keep things focused and to be able to kind of tell a couple different stories about those crops and how they might be impacted in the future. So we looked at climate-change scenarios into the future, we modeled yield outcomes into the future, and then we looked to see if those yields come true what might farm net-incomes do? How might farming incomes change into the future?
John: And what did that future look like?
Brian: Well, we found a couple different things. We found that, you know, the tremendous growth we've seen in yields - agricultural yields over the past, you know, 40 to 60 years, that those would continue to be borne out as we continue to invest in new technologies, new crop genetics, new management, new machinery, new precision agriculture. But that growth would slow due to climate change acting as a drag on that yield growth. And it's a bit subtle in a sense that we would just see a slowing of that growth and not this dramatic down-turn. But under more extreme climate-change scenarios, and in certain counties that are really at the margins of those crop-growing regions, we could start to see that, where yields stagnate or reverse all together.
John: That's interesting. And is the driver of that drag, is it draught or aridification moving to the east from the west? What's the driver?
Brian: Yeah, so Two Degrees Adapts studies this in a few different ways. We definitely think of agriculture as a system. We think of the crops as a system. And so how we tend to look at this in agriculture, especially for corn and soybeans that develop in terms of heat units... So there is beneficial heat that helps the crop grow. And this typically is, you know, between, you know, 50 degrees Fahrenheit and, you know, the mid-80s Fahrenheit. So we can track how much time does the crop spend in that beneficial period? And then we can also look at more extreme temperatures where that crop growth starts to tale off, or even cease all together. And for corn and soybeans this tends to be when temperatures get above 85 or 86 degrees Fahrenheit during the summertime, that that growth starts to slow down. So we can add up how much time do we spend in this, both in the past and in future projections. And then the third thing that we've begun to look at is what we call a "crop-water index." And that's just the difference between how much precipitation falls--that's sort of the supply of water to the crops--and then how much water has evaporated or extracted out of the system? That's a term that your listeners will be familiar with from Richard Seager's interview, where he talked about evapotranspiration--that's water coming out of the soil and then transpiring through the crops. And the reason we look at this crop-water index is because crops need a certain amount of water to grow, but if they get too little, or they get too much we tend to see yields decrease. And so that third term helps us to capture these years where we have dramatic variability and, you know, see yields drop off due to that. So we combined these three factors--the beneficial heat, the detrimental heat, and this crop-water index, to predict future changes in yield from year to year.
John: That's super clear and super compelling I think to have those three indices and think about the - I mean, and this is the science nerd in me thinking, you know, you've got mean, which is that first one, and then you've got the variance, the second moment, which is captured I think both for heat and for water in your second two indices. So I think that's really interesting.
Brian: Yeah, and how we look at it is not just the average conditions. So if we think about those three terms, how things are changing in, you know, the Midwest or the upper Mississippi River basin, in general as the climate warms we do see more beneficial heat. We have more time, more of these what we call "growing-degree days," especially in the northern part of the upper Mississippi River basin in, you know, northern Minnesota and the eastern Dakotas, even through, you know, Iowa and Missouri. We do see more growing-degree days. And then that detrimental heat, which we refer to as "failing-degree days," where the crop is at risk of failing, those increased as well. Now, in the historical period we don't have that many of these, you know, failing degree days. We don't have much time that crops have spent in this really detrimental heat range. And as past guests have talked about on your podcast, the Midwest is this optimal climate for growing crops. Now, as the climate warms, as the climate shifts, we start to move out of that optimum range. And the time spent in that detrimental heat can double or even triple in parts of the upper Midwest. And so even though we have more of this beneficial heat, the time spent in this detrimental heat range can really increase, and that can be a bigger drag - a bigger influence on that drag. So you kind of have these two different things competing. Third, you talked about, you know, the aridification and how things are getting a bit drier. As past guests on your podcast have talked about, that's, you know, influenced by changes in precipitation. You know, summertime precipitation is getting a bit drier, or coming in larger/shorter bursts. And then at the same time, because it's warmer the atmosphere is sort of demanding more water from the surface, including the plants. And as that happens, the net is this - we kind of shift that crop-water index negative and things get a little bit drier.
John: That's really interesting. And so a follow-up question for you--and it's kind of based on the bonus episode from last season, the road trip--you know, we drove through corn and soy from Mississippi to Minnesota. And I was thinking as we drove, you know, the crops are definitely different stages, you know, further along in Mississippi than they were in Minnesota. Do you think there'll be a point where, you know, a farmer will go to growing corn around the shoulders of those detrimental degree days, you know, like, earlier in the spring and then another crop later in the fall when they can kind of take advantage of the beneficial ones?
Brian: Yeah. Well, I mean, one point I really want to emphasize is that farmers have been adapting to the climate for as long as we've been doing agriculture.
John: Right.
Brian: And that's going to continue. So I think there will be some farmers that do experiment with when they plant, when they harvest, and what they plant, to try to, you know, do their best. They're businesspeople, too. They're trying to put food on the table and to do that for their own families and for families all around the world. So I think they will continue to experiment with that. There are some risks with planting earlier. You know, for example, you know, there can be these so-called "false springs"...
John: Of course.
Brian: ...where you have a warm period. We've also seen a trend towards, you know, wetter winters and wetter springs, and that can really impact the workability of fields. Can farmers get their tractors into the fields without risking compacting the soil? You know, can they get in there? And this year in particular was a very wet spring in the upper Midwest, and it did really delay or prevent planting in parts of the region. So that just goes to show that even if it's a bit warmer and you think, well, we can take advantage of the shoulder season, well, you've got to think about the precipitation side of the equation, too.
John: Makes sense.
Brian: And that's another point I want to make, that we talk about these sort of average changes in climate. But as you mentioned earlier, it's very important to think about the variability, too. So when we study the climate in this joint report we did with the Environmental Defense Fund, we used a climate model ensemble, which included 20 different climate models that were run into the future. And we looked out to, you know, 2050. And we not only characterized what the average change across those 20 models was, but what was the range? And when you look at that range you can really see, you know, these possibility for good years and bad years. And those bad years the risk of heat happening does increase into the future, you know? And a lot of times we like to talk by analogy, we like to tell farmers or the public when we're talking to them, you know, the risk of a year like 1988 or 2012, that increases into the future where that could happen maybe once every five or six years. And I think that kind of brings it home a bit and gets them not in a crisis mode, but thinking about solutions. They're always trying to think, you know, how can we make our operations resilient to, you know, the changing risks? And I think that, you know, farmers are very used to dealing with risk; that's their bread and butter. And so that's going to continue to be the case. And at Two Degrees Adapt we're always looking for new technologies, new management strategies that can be brought to bear to, you know, create actionable solutions to address that risk.
John: So on that point, give me a couple of examples of those technologies and then strategies. I think you said those two words, right? Give me some examples of things that you work directly with farmers on for the sole purpose of climate adaptation.
Brian: Yeah, I mean, when we collaborated with the Environmental Defense Fund we were very interested in sort of scanning the landscape of technologies and really characterizing what some of these, you know, ongoing innovations are. You know, there's a number of different categories. There's crop genetics being worked on, you know, new types of hybrids, new approaches to developing plant genetics, leveraging technologies like a crisper, where we can actually do gene editing. There are new startups working on kind of taking advantage of the ways that we can use genetics to help crops not mix up their genes, but to pass them on directly from parent to child, where we can help to, you know, pick out the best traits in a crop and push those forward. You know, there are growers and, you know, technologies working on new crop varieties, you know, helping to raise yields on alternative crops, like millet, like sorghum, and help to create opportunities for new markets to open up for some of these crops that are more drought-resilient, more drought-tolerant.
John: Excellent.
Brian: That's, you know, some examples. I mean, there's precision agriculture, as well, the type of machinery we use to put the plant in the field and to harvest the crop. You know, how much fertilizer we put on the crop, how we apply it, when we apply it. So I think, you know, there's a broad range of technologies that can be brought to bear here, some that are more on the hardware side, some that are on the software side, and some that are, you know, addressing the plants themselves.
John: Great, thanks for those examples.
[MUSIC]
John: Up next, Brian and I discuss the growing importance of water management, how farmers are adapting to climate change, and advice for new scientists that might want to explore entrepreneurship.
John: So we've talked a lot about crops, we've talked a lot about rainfall and temperature, but we haven't talked a lot about where the water comes from. One of the challenges in the future for the Midwest is that as aridification moves east a lot of farmers are going to go below ground for water. What are some of the technologies and innovations that you see farmers using to be able to make this sustainable?
Brian: Because of the work we've been doing to, you know, reduce emissions and mitigate climate change, I think we know now that some of these worst-case scenarios that climate modelers have been using, like, that future is not going to happen, which is great. But even short of that, taking this climate-optimist perspective, you know, we're still looking at somewhere between 1.8 degrees C and, you know, 2.5 degrees C warmer world. And we don't yet know how much worse that's going to be. I think we haven't necessarily paid enough attention to year-to-year variability, or month-to-month variability. You know, I think in the future we need to be able to give farmers tools to cope with short-term variability. It's possible in these futures that we'll have a wet spring and then a very dry summer, this concept of "flash drought" is out there. And I think even with the aridification we won't necessarily see the removal of technologies like tile drainage in farm fields. I don't think we're going to just, you know, reverse all this kind of adaptation to a wetter climate that we had earlier in this century. I think instead what we'll see is an adaptation of those technologies--like tile drains that have been installed--we'll see more, like, active management of that drainage, where you could, for example, do some controlled management where you put a structure into those drains that you can temporarily raise the water table, or capture some water in the soil profile during a period that's a little bit wetter, so that if you have a forecast that's reliable of a flash drought that's coming, you can be prepared for that and really adapt your operations to it.
John: That is an amazing - I had never thought about that, about using tile drains to actually manage shallow-surface water or groundwater.
Brian: Yeah.
John: That makes sense though.
Brian: Yeah, and we've seen - you know, tile drains really made a big impact in terms of increasing runoff in the past decades. And we've seen that, you know, that caused more erosion, erosive rivers, and, you know, has generated larger flows on the Mississippi River. I mean, that's another huge part of what Two Degrees Adapt studies. We've done a lot of flood work along the mainstem of the Mississippi River. In fact, our first project was working for the Mississippi River Cities and Towns Initiative, which is a collection of mayors all along the river, from...
John: I know it well.
Brian: ...Bemidji to, you know, the Delta. And, you know, that project looked at how are floods likely to change in the future, and how could we manage larger floods? And I think one thing that's common throughout all the projects we've worked on is that we have to have the ambition to work at large scales, and to scale these things up. There's a lot of innovation that's going on in local farm fields and in local communities. And when we find the solutions that look like they might have some traction, we have to find ways to communicate that message to the, you know, state capitals and to Washington D.C. so we can find the public funding to help get that out there. And if some of these solutions have commercial potential then great, we will find private-sector investors to help push it along. But I think what that EDF report shows is that there's a whole continuum of innovation going on and adaptation actions, and we want to try to scale those up to the scale where it will really move the needle. And I think that's the at the landscape scale. And, John, I think you've done a great job of inviting guests on the podcast that are working on those types of solutions that could get to that landscape scale.
John: Great, thank you for that. Let's shift gears a little bit again. That report came out in 2022. Here we are two years later. Has your perspective changed any since the report came out on any of the conclusions that you all made?
Brian: Wel, one thing that's great about science is that it never stops. We keep doing it. And I think one of the big goals is to, you know, we're trying not to fool ourselves. And so one thing that I learned in graduate school was to try to come at a problem from many different directions to really test how robust are these results? And so we've continued to work on the problem, you know, in collaboration with Environmental Defense Fund, with other non-profits and other stakeholders. And as we've continued to do the research we've brought these studies to new states. We've looked throughout the I-states, we've looked at different cropping systems. Like we did a study with EDF where we looked at Kansas and crop-switching, and we thought, what could a more resilient Kansas agriculture system look like in 2050? And we looked at what would happen if you switch to more - you know, less water-intensive crops that still provided the same amount of nutrition as is currently coming off the land. And we showed how might you do that by changing the proportions of crops that are planted in different regions of Kansas. And we found that we could reduce crop-water use by about 10% just by making some of these shifts to less water-intensive crops.
John: So you're doing - in the model you're doing interventions, conducting experiments to see what alternate futures could look like given climate change and some other innovation that you put on the landscape?
Brian: That's right. We're thinking about, you know, without changing the number of acres farmed overall, without changing, you know, some of the other practices, how might you switch crops, say, from corn to sorghum, or from soybeans to millet? What would that do to reduce crop-water use and help retain some of that groundwater. Where in Kansas groundwater-depletion is a severe challenge, and something that we think that agriculture can play a huge role in helping to reverse. And I think that there will be lots of opportunities for innovation there that will continue to be borne out. Because I think, you know, in these agricultural states they want to remain agricultural states. They want to, you know, stay on the forefront. And they'll look for those opportunities to adapt.
John: Right. So tell me now about something you're working on, like, right now that gives you hope, that's a cool project and that you think is, you know, a bright spot.
Brian: That is a great question. I mean, I would say that I am - I do feel very optimistic, you know, because of the amount of innovation that is out there. Every week I'm hearing about new startups, or I'm hearing about, you know, new technologies. And one thing that gets me very excited is when I look into these technologies, or hear about these startups, they're not coming out of nowhere, right? I look into it and I find that this is a technology or a concept that's been worked on for a long time in the Academy and other government agencies. And now some of those early results are coming to bear, are coming to, you know, pay dividends for society. And that gets me really excited, and it makes me think, wow, there's probably a lot more useful science sitting in journals, sitting on the shelves, that I think enterprising individuals can help to bring into the world. I mean, in many ways that's kind of my own story, right? I mean, my graduate school experience was doing basic science. You know, I didn't think I would be doing applied science. I didn't think I would be an entrepreneur, but here I am. And part of what it was, was just recognizing some cool science that had been done that might have some commercial potential, and let's try to do it. And I think taking that risk is something that is often not taught to graduate students, it's not taught in universities...
John: Totally.
Brian: ...but I think more and more it can be. And I would like to kind of be an example for other students, you know, working their way through graduate school that, you know, want to make an impact.
John: There are (only so) many professorships, right? And there are so many other ways to have impact in the world. And, you know, I completely agree with your perspective on that, and your optimism about it. And one thing that I tell my colleagues - because you know, like, I have a private-sector company as well, but - that I work on. It's a side project at best at this point. But one thing I tell people is--especially PhD students who are not sure if they want to be in the Academy--I say, "Well, if you know how to write grants in academia you know how to raise money in a business, because it's essentially the same thing. The only difference is you have tenure in academia and you're killing your dinner in your back yard when you're an entrepreneur." But at certain stages in your career it's totally worth doing that. And it is I guess a transferrable talent I guess, is what I would call it.
Brian: Yeah.
John: So for all the young scientists who are listening, tell me what's been fulfilling about the career path that you've chosen.
Brian: Yeah, well, I mean, for all the risks involved with entrepreneurship and the possibility of failure, I mean, that - it doesn't scare me. And the reason it doesn't scare me is because it has allowed me to do things that I, you know, never would've gotten to do otherwise. I got to found one company with a former colleague of mine from graduate school and join with others that were equally passionate about the work. I got to co-found a company with my brother who, you know, has expertise in computer science, and so we took atmospheric science and computer science and we thought, what could we do to bring this together and make something valuable for the world? And we're trying to do that today. So it's very humbling and fulfilling.
John: That's a great family connection, and super interesting to think about. Thanks for that answer.
Brian: I mean, I'm glad I took the risk when I did. You know, I was about 30 and I had been a post-doc. I'd spent some time in the private sector. And just like you said, I knew how to write grants from the Academy. And I had heard of a program called "America's Seed Fund," National Science Foundation runs it. There are these grants called "SBIR, Small Business Innovation Research" program. And a lot of the federal agencies have these grants. And so, you know, I applied. And as is common in science, the first, you know, reviews come back and it was declined. But I was persistent. And I think that that's another lesson I think I have for other young scientists is to be persistent. If you believe in what you're doing and you keep trying to advance the way you talk about it, don't just focus on saying the same thing over and over again, you know, really try to refactor how you communicate your science, and communicate the opportunity you see out there. And for me, really dedicating my career to climate adaptation has been just, like, an evolving commitment that is borne out in the choices I've made. And I think it's just you've got to take a look at what skills you have and what you have to offer to the world, and then to try to go out there and realize that. And I think that's what's been most satisfying to me is being able to continue to work on things that I studied in the Academy, and to try to bring that out into the world and do it on really fun teams to work with.
John: That's amazing. And I think, you know, I want to hit on a point that you made that I think is really important, you know, like the first point that I made about this grant-writing skill being transferrable across the boundary between academia and the real world. I think, you know, grit and tenacity are skills that translate in almost any field, right? You know, like, even with selecting graduate students or post-docs, or looking at trajectories of grad students and post-docs, and those that succeeded typically are the ones that had the most tenacity and grit. It's not about brilliance at the end of the day, it's about having - "determination" I think is the word you used.
Brian: Oh, totally. I mean, in a lot of ways entrepreneurship for me has been about learning to take a punch, you know, kind of to use a boxing metaphor. I remember the first grant rejection I got, it hit me really hard, you know? It was like taking a punch to the stomach. And I get no's all the time now as an entrepreneur, and now when I get a no I think, okay, on to the next opportunity. Let's learn from this...
John: Exactly.
Brian: ...let's review, and keep going. Because that, at the end of the day, is how we move forward. And I think climate adaptation in a way is that for society, writ large, and for individuals even. How do you learn to cope with these climate impacts in a way that doesn't just lay you out, and how do you get up, and keep going, and keep doing the things you love, you know? I think it can totally be true that there is climate change impacting the world in negative ways, but the world is still a very beautiful place, and a world that I can experience out in nature and not be just left kind of bereft about it.
John: I appreciate your optimism. I'm also an eternal optimist. And that kind of brings me maybe to the last question, which I'm pulling from the bonus episode from last season. But tell me where you are and tell me what your connection is to the Mississippi River, because I think we're connected by that.
Brian: Yeah, I love that you ask your guests this question, and I certainly have a connection to the Mississippi River. I'm speaking to you today from Minneapolis, Minnesota, and we're right next to the Mississippi River. You know, my hometown is near a tributary to the Mississippi River, and the community I live in today, Hopkins, Minnesota, is connected to the Mississippi River. There's a "Nine Mile Creek" it's called, and it starts in the storm drains in my neighborhood. And that flows down to the Minnesota River, which then flows to the Mississippi River, past a point called "Bdote," which is a very sacred place, sphere for the local - the Dakota Native American people, which they consider their - you know, the center of their universe. And it flows on down past St. Paul, and down through Iowa, and St. Louis, and onwards all the way down to New Orleans, to Louisiana where you are. And so my connection to the river is that, in thinking like a watershed as being - recognizing that I'm part of a watershed. And I think about how what I do in my little yard can help or hinder the quality of life for millions of people downstream. And I think that understanding really has inspired me. You know, my wife and I have installed rain barrels in our yard, which helps reduce runoff. And this year we also planted a prairie strip. Made me think of one of your guests from last season. You know, on any given day we can look outside and see bees and monarch butterflies. And even though we're just tending to this little piece of land, I think that that's our contribution. That's, I guess, my little gift to you and everyone downstream. And I think if we all thought like that, thought about what's this little impact we can do, we could make things better.
John: I love that as an ending note. And I have to say, I think you know my podcast episodes better than I do, so thanks for being such a good listener and a great guest.
Brian: I love it. I mean, it gets me so excited about - every episode I listen to I think I can make a connection to my own work or something that I want to work on in the future, or a person I want to meet. And I loved that episode with the road trip with your daughter, and how you - she asked, you know, people questions. And it really brings things to life when you see life through somebody else's experience. And so that was a treat and I commend you for doing that episode.
John: Thanks for that shout out, appreciate it. And thank you for being on the show, it was a great conversation.
Brian: Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
[MUSIC]
John: That brings us to the end of this fantastic conversation with Brian Smoliak. One message that stands out to me is that innovation is key to finding climate adaptation solutions that are based in science and that work on the ground. In particular I'm impressed by Brian's ability to step outside of the ivory tower, where he was trained, and seek more actionable solutions in the private sector. One highlight from this conversation is the notion that science can be the foundation for a startup business that moves the needle on climate adaptation. Brian is working directly in this risky space. Is it that risky? Yes and no. Yes, it's risky in the sense that academic jobs have some certainty that startups don't have, at least when you have tenure. Before tenure, the differences in risk are really less noticeable. In academia you have five to six years to commercialize your trade, get grants, and get tenure. And if you don't get those grants and tenure you're forced to go to plan B. In the startup world you might have two, maybe three years to commercialize or monetize your offerings in ways that create recurring revenue, clients that come back again and again, or a product that has broad appeal. But I digress a little bit here. The moral of this podcast is that translation requires more than publishing papers. If we are to win against climate change we need an army of Brians that work for the private sector to create value-add business propositions that make climate adaptation appealing in the private sector and to the private sector, those larger companies. Successfully selling climate adaptation is not part of the problem, but part of the solution. Thank you for listening to this episode. You can follow Brian on LinkedIn and X (or Twitter) at @BrianSmoliak.
John: That's it for this episode of Audacious Water. If you like the show please rate or review us and tell your colleagues and friends. For more information about Audacious Water, and to find in-depth show notes from this episode, visit our website at AudaciousWater.org/podcast. Let's keep the conversation going. Follow me on LinkedIn, and check out my regular posts on Forbes.com. Until next time I'm John Sabo.
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END (AUDACIOUS WATER EPISODE 2, SEASON 4)