Season 4, Episode 8: Charles Allen: How Communities Designed Their Future in Post-Katrina New Orleans
Charles Allen, Engagement Director for the Audubon Delta unit of the National Audubon Society and co-founder of the Lower 9th Ward Center for Sustainable Engagement and Development
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Charles Allen, Engagement Director for the Audubon Delta unit of the National Audubon Society and co-founder of the Lower 9th Ward Center for Sustainable Engagement and Development, joins John to reflect on nearly 20 years since Hurricane Katrina and what it means for New Orleans today. They discuss his experience with post-Katrina recovery, the importance of community-led rebuilding, and how neighborhoods have navigated uneven redevelopment. Charles also explores how communities can stay engaged on the impacts of climate change and why public participation is key to building long-term resilience.
“ Grams would say, ‘Don’t be afraid — step in. There’s an opportunity for you now to get involved in the change.’”
Key Topics
The Lasting Impact of Hurricane Katrina: Charles reflects on how Katrina reshaped New Orleans, influenced discussions about community resilience, and remains a defining moment for the city 20 years later.
The “Jack-O’-Lantern Effect” of Uneven Recovery: Charles describes how, 20 years after Katrina, the Lower Ninth Ward still has a patchwork of rebuilt homes surrounded by vacant lots, reflecting the uneven nature of redevelopment and the challenges that remain for the community.
Repurposing Vacant Lots for Climate Resilience: Charles discusses how the Lower Ninth Ward and other neighborhoods have transformed vacant lots into green infrastructure projects, such as rain gardens and water detention areas, to help manage flooding and increase climate resilience.
Civic Engagement in Disaster Recovery: Charles shares how neighborhood leaders participated in post-Katrina planning meetings, advocated for their community, and worked to implement sustainability initiatives to support long-term resilience.
Overcoming Climate Change Numbness and Disinformation: John and Charles explore how people can become desensitized to climate change, the challenge of staying engaged, and the importance of seeking credible information to remain informed.
Embracing Change Instead of Resisting It: Charles reflects on the wisdom of his great-grandmother, who taught him that change is inevitable, and explains why stepping into change is essential for shaping a stronger, more resilient future.
Links to Relevant Studies and Resources:
Learn more about Charles on Audubon Delta’s website.
Learn more about the Lower 9th Ward Center for Sustainable Engagement and Development, co-founded by Charles, and its work on environmental justice and climate resilience.
Charles and John discuss the IPCC AR6 Climate Report, which outlines the science behind intensifying climate impacts.
Further Reading:
Read about the City of New Orleans’ Climate Action Strategy and its resilience planning efforts.
“Neighborhoods were required to prove their viability and demonstrate how you’re going to come back. So with neighborhood associations, nonprofits, you name it, we were all engaged in these conversations on proving our viability. ”
Transcript
START (AUDACIOUS WATER EPISODE 8, SEASON 4)
[MUSIC]
JOHN: Welcome to Audacious Water, the podcast about how to create a world of water abundance for everyone. I'm John Sabo, director of the ByWater Institute at Tulane University. On today's show, how communities can drive climate resilience from the ground up. My guest is Charles Allen, co-founder of the Lower 9th Ward Center for Sustainable Engagement, and the engagement director for the Audubon Delta Unit of the National Audubon Society. Charles has spent decades working on environmental justice and climate adaptation in New Orleans. Today we'll talk about the 20th anniversary of Hurricane Katrina, what's changed in the Lower 9th Ward since the storm, and how community-driven solutions are shaping the city's future in the face of climate change.
JOHN: Charles, welcome to the show.
CHARLES: Thank you, John, it's a pleasure.
JOHN: Yeah, this is going to be fun. First question--I always start with this question--you have an important job regionally focused on community engagement, on environmental issues, including climate change. When you were a little boy did you imagine that you would have a job like this?
CHARLES: No [LAUGHTER], I have to admit I didn't. I was under the influence of two premier folks in my background--my maternal grandfather, who was a dentist... So I actually thought for a period of time I was going to be a dentist. And then my father, who's always been very civically-engaged, okay? He was kind of the politician without ever being elected to office. He was the king-maker. He was the consultant, the activist, and even on election days he was the one getting out masses of people to canvass neighborhoods. So he was involved in civic affairs in that way. But I would say he was definitely a king-maker, okay? And there's still a number of local officials to this day, when they see me and know my name they always ask about him, and they ask how he's doing. So he's touched a lot of folks in that regard. So at one point I thought, well, maybe I will get into politics, which is a lot of engagement work of course, you know? So yeah - no, didn't quite know which path I was going to take.
JOHN: Yeah, I hear you; I'm the same way. I mean, I probably thought - my dad is a lawyer. I spent my childhood fishing with my dad in some of the most beautiful places in Colorado. And for a long time I thought I was going to be a doctor; that's what I wanted to do. And then sometime in undergraduate I saw a flyer in a stairwell that said, "Hey, come work with Dr. David (Lodge) and we'll teach you how to scuba dive in lakes in northern Wisconsin." And I said, "Yep, that's for me. I'm going to go do that." And then it became obvious that that passion from spending that time with my dad in nature for so long was what I wanted to do, and there actually was a path for it, right? But I didn't know that until I saw this flyer and tore off that little scrap, and called Dr. David (Lodge). So yeah, you never know where life is going to take you that way. Well, hey, let's shift gears and get into the conversation. Maybe it's starting with Katrina. We're coming up on the 20th anniversary, such an important event for the region, for the city. Also some are saying, as we get closer to the 20th anniversary, that it was an inflection point for the country to think about climate change in a more immediate way, with more urgency. Talk to me about that, about Katrina, what the 20th anniversary means to communities right now. Tell me some things about that.
CHARLES: Well, John, when I reflect back on 20 years since that devastating storm, and I'll describe it as kind of an awakening by a lot of people, especially in the immediate months and years afterwards, around climate change, what does this all mean, and especially locally, I do see some silver linings still remaining from that period of time. Where--and you probably experienced this, too--you still have a lot of times this buzz, and talk, and action locally and in the state around, "We have to restore our coastal wetlands." Our coastal wetlands are that buffer zone, that immediate buffer zone against storm surge. So everybody for the most part is still pretty savvy around that. But I get concerned--and John, I know you can appreciate this--as the years go by--and if you think about it, 20 years, that's now a generation since Katrina--I get concerned that people's sensibilities start to numb a bit. Their, you know, being awake and "woke," as we say, to important issues starts to wane a bit. And they forget how - you know, given the fact that change is always happening, climate change is something that has always happened; you might say it's going to always happen and evolve. So we kind of can't take our foot off the pedal in terms of doing things to mitigate and (adapt) to the changes, you know? And this kind of bleeds into politics, and this bleeds into, you know, who you vote for, how you spend governmental monies, or governmental attention on various things. So I get concerned, John, that 20 years later we're starting to say, okay - or starting to see, rather, people say, "Okay - oh yeah, let's not forget restoring our coastal wetlands," but they forget about the other aspects of climate change, okay? It's not just restoring the wetlands; it's a whole lot of other stuff. I mean, look at the wildfires in California, okay? Look at the apocalyptic snow we experienced last week here in New Orleans, you know? All of that has to do with the general topic of climate change. It's a bunch of different things. So yeah, we've got to really, really remind people, "Don't be myopic. See the bigger picture," okay? Is that making sense?
JOHN: Totally. So much to unpack there. I mean, I think you hit a couple nails on the head, the fires, the snow, hurricanes. One of the things that I write about a lot in public-facing venues is this idea that the impacts of climate change happen in such a random space-and-time fashion, you know? And if you're reading the newspaper you might read one day drought, three months later flood. And if it's drought in your region, the same day there's a flood happening somewhere else. And it's hard to integrate all that information in space and time. We're just not capable of that four-dimensional thinking and integration, right? Our minds aren't tuned that way. And so I think that's one of the issues. But another one that you hit on, and I want you to - I would love to explore this with you, is numbness. And there's, you know, a narrative about the current generation and numbness that they feel towards crises, because they're all around them. And you work in communities probably with folks from this generation. How do you combat that numbness? What's your storyline?
CHARLES: That's an interesting way of describing it, but you're right, it is a numbness. It's a numbness. It's a cognitive dissonance at times. My best way of attacking that and helping people to overcome that is just continue to just preach the truth, okay? Continue to remind us all that, look, in life, as the saying goes, you know, we really need to, and are expected to if at all possible, walk and chew gum at the same time, okay? So while you do the daily things you have to do, pay attention to the news--television, online, however you get your information. Oh, and here's another thing, John. Pay attention to the sources of your information, okay? The scientist in me is talking now. Look for credible sources. Don't go on the first thing that you hear, okay, or that you read, or that you see online. And so be very much a critical thinker. Work every day to try to discern where's the truth in all of this that I'm reading, that I'm seeing, you know? But again you've got to pay attention to it all, okay? Ask questions. And it really calls to mind that you've got to be very, very engaged - civically engaged, engaged in in formation, you've got to be talking. We live in a world--and I guess you could say we'll always live in this world--but if you're going to live in this democracy you've got to be a responsible participant in the democracy, a responsible participant in the society, in life, okay? Doesn't mean you're going to be an expert or have a PhD in something. But we'll be as well-read, as well-versed, as engaged as you possibly can. Talk to people. John, I'm sure you're this way, because I'm definitely this way. In my life I pull a lot of information out of my work and share it with my family members to help them, you know, to share with them. You have to be that way, you know?
JOHN: Yeah, I totally agree. And I do have that dynamic for sure, connecting with my family on some of these issues. And two things that makes me think about, and I'd love your feedback on these. The first is, not many people read the IPCC AR6 policymaker summary report, right? There's a lot of great information in there. And I’m not recommending that everybody read it, but, you know maybe the fact sheets or something. Because it pulls together a lot of that cognitive dissonance, that numbness, into a vision that quite frankly is pretty scary. And it's a credible source of information, too. Like I was just reviewing this with my class yesterday, working group one, which is physical basis for climate change. 40,000 reviewers across the planet. You and I are scientists so we know 30 is a normal sample. 40,000 is remarkable, right? It's almost a population, right? So second piece that I want to think about with you is community. I'm only four years into my stint in New Orleans. That's a lot different than you. My community is those people that I work with, and that's preaching to the choir. But I have another community. I don't own a car so I Uber everywhere. And I talk to my Uber drivers, ask them where they're from, they ask me what I do, I say I teach climate change. One time out of two the first question is, "Oh, do you believe in that?" And most people would probably just say, "Okay, end of conversation," but that's a great starting point for a conversation, right, because those are the people you need to reach, right? And so I've learned a lot about Katrina, about Ida, about the difference between them, a lot about, you know, where people went after Katrina. And I want to get into that with you. But do you experience this, as well, people ask you--because you're the scientist--"Is that credible, climate change?" Like, talk to me about that conversation.
CHARLES: I get it from time to time. Sometimes often, depending on the season. Here's how I get it a lot. So I'm very active in my church. And from time to time some of my fellow church members, if they know my background, they'll say, "Oh, I was hearing about this thing in the news. Is that real?" I'm, like, "Yeah, honey, it's real." [LAUGHTER] You know? And so next thing you know you're pulled into conversations around topics like that. And then I've even had in all, what, 15-plus years that I've been a member of this particular church down in the Lower 9th Ward, my pastor, who sees me--and I really appreciate him for this--he sees me as a credible source, a credible provider of information. He'll at times say, "You know what? Speak to the congregation on Sunday about that." I'm, like, "Really?" He's, like, "Yeah, man."
JOHN: Wow.
CHARLES: Oh yeah. And so - and he's that kind of an open-minded, thoughtful pastor, preacher, and even activist himself. And I teach Sunday school, John, and look, there are many times I will weave in information, like what we're talking about now, in my Sunday school lesson, okay? I do it. I just see it as my responsibility to do that, you know, so to speak.
JOHN: I love that. You know, and a community of Uber drivers is not kids, which I think is maybe the most important audience to connect to. And I often talk, too, about, you know, you know the academic participatory mechanisms quite well. You participated in one with us at the ByWater. And I often talk to people about unusual suspects in that ecosystem, and churches are one of them, right? The military is another one, which is on the other end of the spectrum. But, you know, getting those stakeholders in the room is pretty important for connecting to the core, right...
CHARLES: Absolutely.
JOHN: ...of this country, yep. Fabulous. Okay, let's shift to Katrina. Tell me about your Katrina experience, and then I want to shift to Lower 9th Ward and that experience.
CHARLES: So here's my Katrina experience in a nutshell. I'll never forget that weekend. Let's see, August 29th was a Monday, okay, when the storm hit that morning, hit the city, the floodwaters. So August 26th, that Friday, I'll never forget, my mother and I and many other folks, we were deciding, hmm, we're not going to evacuate, but we'll just stay home, we'll go shopping tomorrow and buy all the goods we need. Well, then tomorrow, Saturday comes, and that's when the Mayor, the Governor at the time, you know, all the officials were saying, "Folks, get the hell out of dodge. Get out."
JOHN: Whoa.
CHARLES: And so immediately I then get a phone call from my mother saying, "Did you hear?" I'm, like, "Yeah, honey, I heard." I said, "Look, I’m going to pack tonight, you do all that you can to pack on your end"--because we were living in two different locations--and then I talked to my dad. And, John, my dad, guess what, man, he stayed; he didn't evacuate.
JOHN: Whoa.
CHARLES: I couldn't stay here with Mom. Mom at the time, she didn't have the best of health, and I didn't want to risk staying here and then there's no access to care for her, okay? So I said, "Let's get the hell on out, Ma." So we did. So we drove all the way to Birmingham and stayed with a good friend. I stayed out there for six weeks. Mom stayed for ten weeks. John, I came back to the city October the 9th of 2005, when you can imagine how it looked, okay? And when I came back--that was a Saturday, too, by the way--came back here, drove around, checked on various things. Later on that evening my mother called me, she said, "Well, son, how does it look?" I said, "Ma, it is jacked up." And I used another colorful term to describe [LAUGHTER] how it looked.
JOHN: I can imagine.
CHARLES: I say, "Ma, this is not for the faint of heart, okay? It looks like this place was bombed out. It looks like a war zone down here. There is no life anywhere." And there's a stench of death everywhere, you know? There's a stench of just, you know, dead animals--I hate to say it--dead people; there was no life. And it was dark. You know, that was the beginning of the fall season for the most part. John, as 5 o'clock would approach it would get so dark across this area. And, John, when I say the "area" I mean New Orleans, Slidell, the surrounding area. It was so dark. But luckily for me I happened to start staying with a colleague of mine. In fact, you know this guy: John (McLaughlin), the former director of the CBR at Tulane. He allowed me to stay with him at his studio apartment on Gravier Street. So he was on that island, as you might describe it, of the city where there was still power, okay, there was still lights, but it was an island. That little enclave close to the river, that downtown...
JOHN: I live right in the same neighborhood, so know exactly what you're talking about, yeah.
CHARLES: Yeah, see? That's right. Your neighborhood, the French Quarters, that was a lit island at night. The rest of the city, darkness. And John, I'm not going to even lie to you, it put me - as the days and weeks went on it put me in such a mood of depression, a "depressed state" I should say - but yeah... And I just - I came back. I was one of those, you might say, "pioneers on the frontier," doing some immediate cleaning and stuff, and whatever. And I told my mother, I said, "Honey, you stay behind in Birmingham. You're in better hands and in better care out there with the friends that we have. And we'll just talk daily, I'll just tell you daily how it's looking," and, you know, blah blah blah.
JOHN: This was still when the city was under water, or was the city not under water at six weeks out?
CHARLES: So no, at that point, if I remember correctly, the entire city had been dewatered, okay? But you may recall, or you may have read, the National Guard was still sort of patrolling the area. And they were telling folks, you know, residents from the various neighborhoods, "You can go into your neighborhoods, into your home, for certain hours during the day," and it was called a "look-and-leave policy," okay? "But by 5 o'clock you need to leave." And so around 5 o'clock and on, that's when the National Guard would really patrol neighborhoods for looting, okay?
JOHN: Wow.
CHARLES: And so if you were in your home past that hour, make sure you have your ID. Because if you're asked to provide proof that you live where you are, be ready to provide it, you know? It was that kind of a situation.
JOHN: Charles, this is an important point. And I think - look, I'm going to say straight up I was in Arizona when this happened. And just like if you live here and there are fires burning in California you have no concept of how (disastrous) it is. I was in the West thinking, oh, it's a hurricane and it'll be over with in five days. And, you know, with the news cycle it'll be all better. But the National Guard I think kind of really emphasized to me how ground zero it was. Because it wasn't just six weeks that the National Guard was patrolling; they were effectively the police for almost a whole year, right? Or maybe longer?
CHARLES: Yeah, they were - they were. There was so many things--and I'm sure you know this from your work in this space--there were so many phases of recovery that we went through. You know, there was immediate rescue and recovery, and then there was just recovery. And then through recovery there are these various phases of it. And my God, I lived through all of those phases [LAUGHTER].
JOHN: Wow.
CHARLES: So I saw the landscape change over time. Change for the better, but then in some aspects it was, hmm, that's not going to come back because it's just not possible, you know?
[MUSIC]
JOHN: Up next, Charles shares how communities are repurposing vacant lots for water management and green infrastructure, and how these local solutions contribute to climate adaptation.
JOHN: Let's shift to that landscape. I think the landscape is a good segue for some of the work that we could do together and that we've talked a lot about. I've been to the memorial in Lower 9th Ward where the levee broke and drove around the neighborhood to see what it was like 19 years later, right? This was last year. And I would say one out of three houses still aren't there; they're open lots, right? Talk to me about that transition, and then we'll transition into kind of your role in the community during that initial couple years.
CHARLES: So you're speaking well to that - what we call "Jack-o-lantern effect" after a disaster like that, where you'll have one house on a block where the people are living, but then they're living around vacant lots. And so that's definitely a situational story that we saw play out and evolve across the city, not just Lower 9. But infamously in Lower 9 for sure, okay, because of how the water swept into that area. But I've gone to the Lakeview area, and areas of Mid-City, and for sure areas of New Orleans East. I remember one time going to visit the home of some friends of mine in Lakeview, and I remember always Lakeview being this beautiful area. Man, in those immediate weeks, months, and years, Lakeview was just that, it was a Jack-o-lantern effect evolving, you know?
JOHN: And so just for the listeners, the Jack-o-lantern is a couple of houses per block on...
CHARLES: That's right.
JOHN: ...the rest missing.
CHARLES: That's right. You know, just spotty sort of redevelopment over time. And then also, oh my God, all the various infrastructure projects that were underway, okay? Because it wasn't just repairing the floodwalls and the levees, but there was some damage to the underground drainage system, okay? So you're talking about Sewage and Water Board, in terms of streets you're talking about the Department of Public Works at City Hall. So there were all those kinds of projects evolving over time as well, in addition to people coming in and trying to rebuild their homes, or rebuild churches, or rebuild schools. And that's another thing--everything, John, was being rebuilt. Schools, homes, hospitals, clinics, restaurants, you name it [LAUGHTER].
JOHN: Wow.
CHARLES: It was incredible, but it happened...
JOHN: Ground zero.
CHARLES: Yeah.
JOHN: So are we rebuilt?
CHARLES: We are to a larger degree. We're not the same of course. We're very different. But you know what? A great-grandmother of mine told me years ago, she said, "Son, change is inevitable." She said, "Just try to embrace it however it comes, but it's inevitable." She said, "The key is, you've got to get involved in the change in order to help shape it in the direction you want it to go in. But it's inevitable." And so I have to admit, John, during that period, and still in my life, I think back on Great-Grandmother--we called her "Grams"--I think back on Grams' words. I try to channel her a lot of times in my life, you know? Because look, rightfully so human beings are scared of change. But then I'll think about Gram, and she'll say, "Ah, ah, ah, this may be an opportunity for you to step into it and make the change happen the way it should happen."
JOHN: I love that.
CHARLES: Yeah, don't be too fearful of it, you know?
JOHN: No, that's - I think that's definitely an exclamation point in this interview so far. And, you know, grandmothers are wise, of course. And I've always said professionally--now, this is on a much bigger scale what you're talking about than professionally--but I've always said professionally there's opportunity in change. And it may be the best opportunity that you have, so you can't sit by and watch it. "Step into it." I like that a lot, and I think that's very appropriate for my next question for you, which is, you know, you channeled this into something very positive for your community and your neighborhood, which was the epicenter of the disaster, in a lot of ways. Talk to me about what you did, and what you created, and how you used it to kind of step in.
CHARLES: Sure, sure. So like I shared, I came back to the city October 9th of 2005. And then shortly after I linked up with one of my dear friends and colleagues in community-oriented work, a lady by the name of Pam (DeSchiel). Pam was the president at the time of our Holy Cross Neighborhood Association in the Lower 9th Ward, okay, that Holy Cross Neighborhood along the riverfront down in Lower 9. And I was a member of the Association. Now, our vice president at the time, a wonderful young lady, she and her family did not come back to the city; they stayed in the Houston area. So Pam contacts me and she says, "Charles, we need a vice president. Would you just step into the role?" [LAUGHTER] So I said, "Oh my goodness," I said, "sure, Pam, I'll step into it temporarily, okay?" Well, temporarily never happened. Temporarily became permanent for a little while, okay? And so then Pam started going to all of these different recovery/planning meetings - post-Katrina planning meetings that were starting to happen in the city. You may recall reading back then, neighborhoods were required to prove their viability and demonstrate how you're going to come back, okay? So with neighborhood associations, non-profits, you name it, we were all engaged in these conversations on proving our viability. And so we then took it upon ourselves, the Holy Cross Neighborhood Association, to say, "Okay, we need to begin to put out some work, some statements, and some efforts that show how we intend to be viable, how we're going to recover ourselves." So Pam and I talk, we said, you know, what's an immediate thing to learn from this whole disaster? So we started - you know, with the help of a number of friends we talked to, we started to kick around ideas. And I'm sure you recall this, too, John--back in the mid part of the early 2000s there was a lot of talk around how communities can become more sustainable. And it was even the beginnings of the use of the term "resilience," okay? And then another concept that was woven into all that we were thinking about was "energy efficiency." So all of this - these overarching concepts we say, this basically needs to explain it, needs to demonstrate it, needs to message how we as the Lower 9th Ward are going to come back, okay? We're going to do it smartly, energy efficiently, sustainably, and promote long-term resilience. Now, that was a conversation now, that didn't just happen and focus on Holy Cross and Lower 9. You had a lot of other neighborhoods beginning to use that same messaging, okay? And then New Orleans as a whole, the city government was even starting to talk that way and promote things in that way. So my work really goes back to that early period after Katrina, linking up with Pam (DeSchiel) and others, and beginning these conversations and these thought processes, and some actual work around how do we demonstrate we're going to come back. We're going to do it energy efficiently, with long-term sustainability in mind, and long-term resilience in mind. And look at us today--those buzzwords, to some degree, are still used, you know? There was even talk and even actual investments in action that took place, John, in terms of installing solar panels on ten rooftops. The majority of the rooftops were in the Holy Cross neighborhood, but there was one rooftop in an area of Lower 9, what we call the "central" part of Lower 9. It's the area between Claiborne and St. Claude. And it's not in the Holy Cross neighborhood, and it's not on the far northern end. That community center received resources to have a solar panel slapped on it. Yours truly, Charles here, at the time I was serving on the Historic District Landmark Commission. That's that local municipal commission that governs historic properties in the historic districts. And so being on that commission at the time, that commission was responsible for approving the permits to install those solar panels on the historic buildings in Holy Cross. And I remember distinctly, John, leading up to that vote I had to kind of call up my fellow commissioners beforehand and say, "Look, when we have this next meeting I need your support on voting with me to allow these panels to be installed." And I'll never forget, at the vote my colleagues on the (inaudible) are looking at me, you know, as if to say, "You really want to see this happen?" And I kind of exclaimed back to them, you know, "Yeah, we want to see this happen." And I said, "Folks, not only do we want to see this happen, but I dare say in your own neighborhoods," and I said, "these conversations are probably happening right now. You have people talking about and trying to make investments in their homes, but focused on energy efficiency. So don't just support us in the Holy Cross Neighborhood on this; let's support each other on this, okay? Because I dare say on future agendas of these meetings there are going to be some permit applications coming up in your areas that you're going to expect support on." And with that, John, everybody pushed their green button and voted yes [LAUGHTER].
JOHN: Nice.
CHARLES: But, you know, it's that kind of - you know, a lot of times you find yourself, you know, at the forefront of something where you have to be the agent, so to speak, to push something through. And you're not working by yourself, you're working with a bunch of folks. And so, yeah, I just shared that with you as just one aspect of how we were trying to push the agenda of energy efficiency, sustainability, and long-term resilience. And then, as you know, we established the Lower 9th Ward Center for Sustainable Engagement and Development, a non-profit which is still in existence. We received our first grant from Mercy Corps, whose home base is in Portland, Oregon. And that was 2006 and 2007 when we began to receive that first bit of funding from Mercy Corps. And so the Center is still in existence today, you know, and still promoting those concepts, promoting some other good works as well. Because, you know, things have evolved since that early period after Katrina.
JOHN: Yeah, that's great. Thank you for that history. And, you know, one of the things that strikes me as - talking to a colleague at ByWater about a grant proposal, that you know about, and it was focused on regional resilience, community-driven solutions, and how visionary 20 years ago that y'all in Lower 9 harnessed those concepts 20 years before. One of the things that we talked about I think that's important is, you know, I asked my colleague, who you know, I said, "Why don't people do this more? Why aren't there bridges built between the great community work that folks like Charles is doing and government agents who are responsible for making decisions and building the big stuff?" right? And he replied to me, "John, because it's politics; it's not research."
CHARLES: Yeah.
JOHN: You know, and politics can be on many different scales, right? Like sometimes we think of politics as being the White House, but neighborhood decisions is politics as well, right? And you just described it. Fantastic. So you talked about sort of the transition from those original principles to new work. And one of the things that I was curious about when I was in Lower 9 by the memorial where the floodwall broke, was that nature was coming back in those places where there weren't houses. In some cases it looked like nice nature, and I'm going to put Nixon quotations around "nice nature," you know? And in other places it looked like, well, this could be nicer, you know? And I don't mean "nice" in the sense of a groomed garden, but there are outcomes that you can direct in those empty lots for good. Talk to me about that and work that's in that space. And it ties back to resilience, right?
CHARLES: Right. So, you know, as I listen to you describe that there one thing that comes to my mind is--and this has been an ongoing program of what's known as the "New Orleans Redevelopment Authority" here in New Orleans, okay? And it's around what do we do with these remaining vacant lots? So as you described in a way, nature takes over, okay? The grass grows wildly, and the critters and everything - nature just takes over wildly, okay? So what we can do is, if it looks like we're not going to have a home or some other kind of building on this lot, how can we then turn this lot into something that serves other purposes for our community? We can kind of let it grow wildly, but still manicure it from time to time, okay? We can also--and here's another concept that has really taken over locally, and I know you - now that you're living here you're experiencing this--this concept of water management. So who do we use vacant lots to help us mitigate for street flooding when it happens, okay? How do we install something on this vacant lot that will perhaps take the pressure off of the underground drainage system? And if we channel the water to that lot, that lot can become a temporary (detention) area for the water. And then eventually the water goes back down deeper into the underground water table to enhance that underground "sponge," if you will, that exists down below. Because as we know, the sponge has been cracking for years and not absorbing the water, and being very malleable, so to speak, you know, moving like a sponge moves. We know just from a sponge in a kitchen, if you let it just sit dry for a while that sucker can start to crumble a little bit, okay? And so there have been all of these very thoughtful science-based things we've been trying to do and implement on down to how do we put these vacant lots into some kind of usefulness for a community, you know? Because there are still a lot of vacant lots, John, as you know.
JOHN: Yeah.
CHARLES: And we have a lot of these rain gardens and little pocket parks in neighborhoods where there's a bench, beautiful vegetation, but then there's this open little trench area that's for the rainwater to go [LAUGHTER], okay? And these are things, John, we've come to see and know are being employed around the world in communities, okay? You know, New Orleans just doesn't have a corner on the market for flooding. We had to learn from our Dutch friends and colleagues, and learn from folks in Japan, and elsewhere, you know, communities where they are, relatively speaking, below sea level, okay? And so they're always - for them it's always a fight to manage the water as it's coming in. So yeah, I think that speaks to what you were talking about there.
JOHN: Let's close on hopefully a note of optimism and go back to 20th-year anniversary of Katrina. What give you hope, especially given that there's an opportunity to harness the anniversary for change, right? Tell me about something that gives you hope in that respect.
CHARLES: What gives me hope is--and this happened recently--recently, John - I'm now 51 years-old; let me just lay that out there, too. And so I've been coming across a number of colleagues who are in their early 30s, okay, 20 years younger than me. [LAUGHTER] So colleagues and friends in their early 30s, late 20s, maybe even younger, who are, in various ways, perhaps on their college campuses if they're in their 20s, or in their neighborhoods - they may be, you know, folks who just bought their first home in an area, in New Orleans to be exact. And they're also trying to further promote these concepts, and they're getting involved in this work that we're speaking about. Because 20 years later the demands are still there, the needs are still there, and, you know, the dream... I think it was Ted Kennedy who said at his concession speech in 1980 at the Democratic National Convention, "The dream never dies," okay? The hope still prevails. I'm drawing a blank on all the rest of his words, but you may recall that famous speech where he says, "The work endures but the dream never dies," okay? And so there are a lot of youngsters who are still dreaming big, okay, getting involved in the work that we're talking about. And so seeing them, folks 20 years younger than me, gives me hope, okay? It gives me hope. And I love talking to them and working with them, okay, because I learn from them, you know? We learn from each other, as I know you know.
JOHN: Well, and it kind of circles back to our comments about numbness. It's the best way to not feel numb is to engage, to "step in"...
CHARLES: That's right.
JOHN: ...as Grams would say.
CHARLES: As Grams would say - she would say, "Don't be afraid. Step in. There's an opportunity for you now to get involved in the change," you know?
JOHN: I love it.
CHARLES: And she would also say, "Don’t complain for too long. Don't stay in that space of complaining and, you know, pointing fingers. Uh-uh, you're wasting your time." [LAUGHTER] And so...
JOHN: My mom always says, "Do that for 24 hours and then it's time to roll up your sleeves."
CHARLES: That's right. It's time to get moving, yeah. [LAUGHTER]
JOHN: Excellent, Charles. It's been great talking to you. This is a fantastic conversation--I can't wait to hear it live, and I can't wait to see you in person next time.
CHARLES: Same here, my friend.
JOHN: Take care.
CHARLES: Take care.
[MUSIC]
JOHN: All right, that's a wrap on a great conversation with a colleague and friend. This conversation felt spiritual to me, and I think one of the highlights is Grams' advice to "step into change." We have to step into change in order to adapt and thrive in a new world of climate change, and Charles has been at the forefront of making that happen in the Lower 9th Ward. As I mentioned in the podcast, the Lower 9th still bears the scars of Katrina. From the point of attack of the storm where the levee broke, one can imagine the surge and power of stormwater torrents rushing into the Lower 9th and raising houses from their lots. Twenty years later there is still a patchwork of a neighborhood left, empty lots punctuated by sparse rebuilt homes. But in that patchwork nature persists, and the community is embracing that new nature to abate flooding and create nature-based solutions to stormwater management. This community-based solution will not transpire without leaders, community leaders, who are able to cross boundaries between the neighborhood, government, NGOs, and universities. And Charles has done this his whole life. Charles also points to numerous other community leaders who have inspired him. The overall vibe of this conversation reminds me of a quote from Jesse Keenan in Episode 3. Jesse says, "And in the landscape of what we leave behind, and where we choose to move forward, there's an opportunity for sustainable urban development. There's an opportunity to shed ourselves of the structures of isolation, and segregation, and carbonization, and try to rebuild in the interest of affordability, accessibility, whatever those values are that advance a more sustainable world and way of living. So in the ashes of what we leave behind we have the opportunity to build something new, and that's a kind of optimism that I think many people share."
JOHN: That's it for this episode of Audacious Water. If you like the show please rate and review us, and tell your colleagues and friends. For more information about Audacious water, and to find in-depth show notes from this episode, visit our website at AudaciousWater.org. Until next time I'm John Sabo.
[0:41:45]
END (AUDACIOUS WATER EPISODE 8, SEASON 4)